---
title: 'EIR Interview Gladio and 911'
url: 'https://samisdat.in/en/media/2018%20-%20operation%20gladio'
markdown: 'https://samisdat.in/en/media/2018%20-%20operation%20gladio.md'
lang: en
date: '2026-08-31'
description: 'EIRInvestigation Secret Warfare: From Operation Gladio to 9/11 An Interview With Dr. Daniele Ganser rich. He was interviewed on March this, I would proceed. 3 in Basel, Switzerland, by Michael EIR: How did you come to the idea of writing a book on structure. Why, do you think, are they doing so? i…'
---

# EIR Interview Gladio and 911

## **EIRInvestigation**

## Secret Warfare: From Operation Gladio to 9/11

An Interview With Dr. Daniele Ganser

*rich. He was interviewed on March* this, I would proceed. *3 in Basel, Switzerland, by Michael*

![](https://samisdat.in/user/pages/05.media/2018%20-%20Operation%20Gladio/_page_0_Picture_4.jpeg?g-3fa34440)

**EIR:** How did you come to the idea of writing a book on structure. Why, do you think, are they doing so?

in diplomatic terms, with the parallel covert operations of the engaged in secret warfare, but refused to provide any details. CIA, I discovered that the United Nations was helpless, when In the late 1990s, I contacted NATO Archives on SB/ confronted with covert actions. So, by 1998, I was very inter- Gladio, and they told me they had no relevant records. Then ested in covert actions. William Blum, who has written on I requested very specific information, because I had done a secret warfare in the United States, advised me to look at lot of research by then. NATO Archives responded they had Operation Gladio. To do this, said Blum, one would need to no records on the Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC) and have worked on covert operations, and one would have to be Clandestine Planning Committee (CPC). I got back to them able to speak not only English, but German, Italian, French, and said: You must have something; but they repeated: No, Spanish, and more languages. I said: "I'll do it." And, nobody we do not have anything. Then somebody advised me to hand

*Dr. Ganser is the author of* NATO's Prof. Georg Kreis of Basel University, my dissertation Secret Armies: Operation Gladio and advisor, was initially skeptical on researching secret warfare, Terrorism in Western Europe *(Lon-* especially covert operations during the Cold War. As the rele*don: Frank Cass, 2005). He is lead-* vant data are classified, I might not have enough primary data *ing a research project at the Center* for my research. So, we decided to look at how democracies *for Security Studies at the Swiss Fed-* react when they discover a military-intelligence scandal like *eral Institute of Technology in Zu¨-* Operation Gladio. That would give us some data, and from

*Liebig and Claudio Celani. See* EIR*,* **EIR:** Your requests to NATO, the CIA, and MI6 for informa-*Jan. 7, 2005 for a commentary on* tion on the Stay Behind/Gladio structure were met with in-*Ganser's book.* credible reactions. Sixteen years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, they are still denying the existence of the SB/Gladio

*NATO's Secret Armies?* Who encouraged you and who dis- **Ganser:** Well, first I checked how NATO, the CIA, and MI6 couraged you? reacted in 1990, because that was the year when Gladio's **Ganser:** I had finished my university studies in history in existence was revealed to the public. As for NATO, first they 1998 and I was looking for a Ph.D. research topic. At that came out in a press conference declaring: NATO has never time, I did research on the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, with a engaged in secret warfare; unorthodox warfare is null of our specific focus on whether the United Nations, the world peace business. But the next day, they had another NATO spokesorganization so to speak, could have done anything to prevent man declaring: What had been said the previous day is wrong, the "cold" nuclear confrontation, which almost turned "hot." but we cannot provide further information, because it's all When I compared the role of the United States government classified. So, NATO in 1990 actually admitted that they had

discouraged me. in a request for archive material on Gladio through the Swiss

Embassy, because Switzerland, in the context of Partnership for Peace, has a link to NATO. They actually did, but, again, the answer was negative.

After this disappointing experience, I looked at how the CIA handled Gladio in 1990. In Italy, former CIA director Stansfield Turner was asked by a journalist about Gladio, and answered "No questions on Gladio." When the journalist insisted, he ripped off the microphone and walked out of the room. The *Washington Post* had an article in 1990 on Operation Gladio, which quoted an unnamed CIA representative who said: We have nothing to do with it, this is just an *Dr. Ganser's book broke the coverup* Italian mess. He also said that allegations that Gladio existed *on Operation* also outside Italy are wrong, and any link to terrorism was *Gladio's secret* pure fantasy. I contacted the National Security Archive in *warfare, which* EIR Washington, whose people are very well known for specializ- *had hitherto been* ing in FOIA \[Freedom of Information Act\] requests. Indeed, *virtually alone in exposing. "Not* there had been an FOIA request on Gladio already in 1990; *many people dare* they got the reply you often get when you ask about covert *speak about these* operations: The CIA cannot confirm nor deny any specifics *issues," he said.* as to your request.

In 2000, ten years later, I handed in my request, asking the CIA for data on Gladio; I provided ample documentation that I knew that the CIA was involved, because in the mean- after the end of the Cold War?

Gladio, but it was not possible to get any information from lations, that would be buried very, very deep. MI6 headquarters in London. When I was in London in 2000,

in London, they opened a special exhibition in 1995, "The ogy of your work?

ment." They did not specifically say, "We never did it." data they contain.

![](https://samisdat.in/user/pages/05.media/2018%20-%20Operation%20Gladio/_page_1_Picture_7.jpeg?g-3fa34440)

time, several CIA operatives, some of whom I met in Wash- **Ganser:** The core problem really is terrorism. One of ington, had spoken out. Basically, the reply I got was: No, we NATO's "new missions" today is fighting terrorism; look at cannot give any details, but you have the right to appeal. So, Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere. But, the SB/Gladio data I appealed and the appeal was accepted, then they wrote back: show that at least elements of some of the "secret armies," Your appeal will be handled on a "first come, first served" in which NATO was involved, were linked to sponsoring basis. Three years later, I'm still waiting; nothing has come terrorism. So, SB/Gladio is a very delicate issue for NATO. from the CIA. So delicate, that NATO simply does not want to talk about it. Now, as concerns MI6: In 1990, the MI6 officially "did Some NATO officers did speak off the record on SB/Gladio. not exist." I talked to Christopher Andrews, Nigel West, and Their first point is: What's wrong with preparing for a Soviet others in the British academic community, who had written attack? But their second point is: If, indeed, there had been on MI6. It was perfectly clear that MI6 had been active in SB/ links to terrorism, in the sense of Strategy of Tension manipu-

I went to the MI6 headquarters and I said I wanted to talk to **EIR:** Could you elaborate on the problem of documentary someone who knows about Gladio; it was more of a joke, evidence on one side, and off-the-record, "oral" sources on because I knew they would say "No." the other side? You do have to rely on circumstantial evidence But, there's a funny thing. At the Imperial War Museum in your work on Gladio. How would you define the methodol-

Secret Wars," in which there are displays on the Stay Behind **Ganser:** The core data was from Parliamentary investigaoperation. So I got in touch with the man who had set up the tions: 1) in Switzerland, the Parliamentary Committee on P26, exhibition at the Imperial War Museum. He told me there was the Swiss Stay Behind organization; 2) the Italian Parliamenwas no way I would get anything from MI6. You may look at tary Investigating Committee on Gladio; and 3) the Belgian Special Operations Executive (SOE), Britain's "secret army" Senate Investigation into SDRA8 and STC Mob. As a rule, which Churchill had created during World War II, he advised these parliamentary reports are dumped in cellars and rarely me. SOE was closed down after the war but remained a sort does anybody look at them. They are written in a dull style, of a blueprint for NATO's Stay Behind structure. there are no pictures, no colors, and it's difficult to find them in So, if you want me to summarize: NATO said "no com- the first place. Dusty old stuff for historians like me, therefore. ment," the CIA said "no comment," and MI6 said "no com- But, I have read them very carefully and I have compared the

In the second step, I ran computer checks through digital **EIR:** Why are they stonewalling today, more than a decade media archives, using keywords from the parliamentary re-

ports. This kind of work could not have been done before which the CIA said was a Soviet forgery? media archives were digitalized. I ran my keywords through **Ganser:** The Field Manual 30-31B is a Pentagon document, the digital archives of the *Guardian,* the *New York Times,* so the Pentagon should comment—not the CIA. It was pro-Italian magazines, *El Pais*in Spain, the*Neue Zu¨rcher Zeitung* duced in 1970, during the Vietnam War, and signed by Gen- \[*NZZ*\] in Switzerland, and some 20 other newspapers. With eral Westmoreland. Field Manual 30-31B very much reflects names, figures, and very specific terms. This took me almost the idea that the whole globe is a war zone. What it said, is two years: cross-comparing and analyzing data from 15 coun- that some Western or pro-Western governments might not tries. I had a map in my office, where I put colored pins on adequately stand up to the Communist threat. This document the countries, where various forms of SB/Gladio operations does not name countries, and does not specifically focus on had existed. My approach started with the data from Italy, Europe. In countries where the government is, so to speak, Belgium, and Switzerland, but progressively I found a net- "asleep," U.S. military intelligence must link up with up local

not exactly happy to discover that the phenomenon I was cooperate with the Pentagon can covertly stage terrorist atresearching was much bigger than I had thought in the first tacks. These terrorist attacks, within a Strategy of Tension, place, for I was just a Ph.D. student. Also due to the many would then be attributed—in a "false flag" mode—to the different languages, 12 or 13, I became somewhat worn out. Communists. And, there are clear indications that this is what For whenever I had to add yet another country to my map, in happened in at least some European countries. So, this Field each case, I had to study 50 years of post-war history of that Manual 30-31B seems like a blueprint for the "domestic concountry, while I realized at the same time that I could not trol task"/Strategy of Tension, utilizing SB/Gladio structures. possibly be an expert in the, at times, highly complex history

ture—that's 90% of my work; 10% is discussions with people vices—in Strategy of Tension operations? I thought would give me more information. I have talked **Ganser:** Not an easy question. What is clear is that military

difficult, far-reaching question: Was there a *second function* All this is documented. of the SB/Gladio structures? And some sources say: Yes, Below that level, each country pursued its own policy the "second task," really.

work all over Europe. military intelligence. The task at hand is to make the local What I discovered was not nice at all. You know, I was government "wake up."To that end, special units that secretly

of all these countries. **EIR:** You have documented that SB/Gladio assets were used in Strategy of Tension operations in Italy, Belgium, Greece, **EIR:** What was the significance of oral sources, off-the-re- and Turkey. What is the role of the formal, official SB/Gladio cord discussions for your work? command structure at NATO and at the national level—de-**Ganser:** I focussed on written documents and the litera- fense ministry, military command bodies, intelligence ser-

to CIA operatives in Washington, but mostly to academic establishments have a top-down, hierarchical command experts. In any case, there are not many people who know structure—whatever happens. As far as the SB/Gladio orgasomething about Gladio and want to speak about it publicly. nization was concerned, the top level was the Pentagon, hence the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of **EIR:** How would you describe—you use this formulation in Staff, and, if you want, the President above them. Then, below your *NZZ* article—the "double nature" of the Stay Behind/ the Pentagon, in the U.S. command chain came the Supreme Gladio structures? Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) at NATO headquar-**Ganser:** Indeed, that's the core issue. It can be firmly stated ters in Brussels. At NATO headquarters, further down, you that the Stay Behind structures trained for operations after a had the military intelligence representatives of Western Euro-Soviet invasion and occupation of Western Europe. This can- pean states, who gathered in the Allied Clandestine Commitnot be disputed; all my data confirm this. But there's a more tee (ACC) and in the Clandestine Planning Committee (CPC).

there was a second function, and this function was to "influ- in respect to its SB/Gladio structure. The national military ence" the democracies of Western Europe, irrespective of the intelligence service would approach people and recruit them threat of a Soviet invasion. So, the one function, which I called for the network. A lot of these people were just very conservathe "post-invasion task," was a military task within the Cold tive, anti-communist patriots, who would never get involved War confrontation with the Soviet Union; whereas the "sec- in a terrorist operation. Many were not even aware that the ond task" was a domestic manipulation or "control" operation Pentagon or the British Ministry of Defence was their ultimate in the absence of an invasion. It was very difficult to pin down master. Their point of reference was the local military intelli-

(or NATO) agents, but that if the host country governments "show passivity or indecision in the face of communist subversion," then U.S. Army intelli- **EIR:** What is the significance of the Field Manual 30-31B,1 gence may launch top-secret "special operations" to convince public opinion of the reality of the "insurgent danger." No English original of the Manual 1. Field Manual 30-31B, issued in 1970, emphasized that military and other was ever found, only Italian translations of parts of it, and some investigators

secret service leaders in various host countries should be recruited as U.S. doubt its authenticity—ed.

gence chief, whom they might have known from joint military service.

But then we have a blank. We do not know the all-important *link* between the "clean" SB/Gladio structure and those who carried out terrorist acts. How does this "link" relate to the official chain of command? We have in Italy the testimony of Vincenzo Vinciguerra, who admitted having carried out, in 1972, the Peteano terrorist attack. After his arrest, Vinciguerra stated that "parts" of the Italian state and "parts" of what he called "the Atlantic Alliance" secretly supported such terrorism in order to discredit the political left. Whether people like him received their instructions from NATO's SHAPE \[Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe\], or from the Pentagon, will be very difficult to establish. There will be next to no written sources, while oral testimony from officials will follow "plausible denial" tactics.

## **EIR:** You would rule it out?

**Ganser:** Well, the rule with Gladio is that you cannot rule out anything, that's exactly the point. After all, secret armies have existed for 40 years in all countries of Western Europe, outside of any control of parliamentary democracy. If that's possible, you can't rule out anything.

EIR: Vinciguerra's testimony is controversial. Not for what he said, but for the interpretation. He referred to a paramilitary secret structure, composed of men in uniform and civilians, but he did not mention the name Gladio. According to Prosecutor Guido Salvini, who has conducted the latest investigation on Piazza Fontana,2 Vinciguerra might refer to a subversive group called "Nuclei di Difesa dello Stato," and not to the official Gladio structure

Ganser: As I said, there's a "gap," there's a gray zone which needs further investigation. On the one hand, we know that there were right-wing terrorist attacks; on the other side we know that NATO, the CIA, and the Italian military secre service operated a secret Gladio army in Italy. That much is clear. Now to the "gray zone": It is true that Vinciguerra did not mention the name "Gladio" at the time, nor did he say he had received the orders for his terrorist acts from Gladic commanders. But, the full list of Gladio members is still no available, nor with whom they cooperated. So Salvini, who is an outstanding expert in the field, concludes that the "Nucle di Difesa dello Stato" could have been the "missing link.' See, it's like a very long chain, and we are trying to piece together the elements of that chain, but as it's an international secret network, that's pretty difficult.

**EIR:** Do you have any indications of "sideways" accessing—outside the formal chain of command—of elements in SB/Gladio structures for terrorist operations?

## The Strategy of Tension

Operation Gladio was first exposed in 1990 in Italy, but existed elsewhere in Europe as well, having been built up by Anglo-American intelligence at the beginning of the Cold War, as the core of a potential guerrilla force able to operate behind enemy lines—referred to as a "stay behind" force—in case of a threatened invasion and occupation of Western Europe by the Warsaw Pact. In the case of Italy, it was documented that Gladio was also involved in the "Strategy of Tension" of right-wing terrorist bombings, aimed at maintaining political control on behalf of certain political networks.

Claudio Celani wrote a four-part series on the "Strategy of Tension: The Case of Italy," in *EIR* (March 26, April 2, April 9, and April 30, 2004), which was reprinted in a LaRouche in 2004 Presidential Campaign Special Report, *The Synarchist Resurgence Behind the Madrid Train Bombing of March 11, 2004*. He traced the "Strategy of Tension" from Operation Gladio; to the 1969-80 terrorist bombings; the murder of Aldo Moro in 1978; the Propaganda-2 freemasonic lodge and SISMI military intelligence service; and the emergence of new fascist parties in the aftermath of the early 1990s "Clean Hands" demolition of the Italian post-war political system.

Ganser: Well, the data point to right-wing terrorist groups. Why would a military intelligence service link up with right-wing terrorist groups? Why would they do that? Because they want to carry out special operations for which they cannot employ their own service's staff. That's what I see, in some respect, did happen in Belgium with the Brabant massacres or in Italy with Piazza Fontana, with Brescia, with Peteano. And this is what I see in Turkey, where the Turkish military secret service penetrated and recruited or linked up with ultranationalist extremists like the "Gray Wolves."

**EIR:** Have you found any indications of entities outside the military or military intelligence command structure, linking up with assets within the SB/Gladio structure, like the Propaganda 2 freemasonic lodge in Italy?

Ganser: The answer is difficult. You had defense ministers in the P2 lodge—they were obviously part of the command structure. At times, you had the chiefs of the military intelligence services belonging to P2—they were at the same time part of the Gladio command hierarchy. Other P2 members never show up in any Gladio data. But, somewhere in the military command chain, you do get very close to terrorism.

The Piazza Fontana bombing, on Dec. 12, 1969, killed 16 people and wounded 58.

Also criminals and organized crime structures come in. You parties. I know of no other country in the world with such a

adhere to a strict code of honor, some of them might speak quieu would turn in his grave. out more in the future, distance themselves from the criminal elements, and give their side of the story. In fact, former **EIR:** Let us talk about Italy, which seems to be unique in Gladio commander Gen. \[Gerardo\] Serravalle, who published Western Europe, as the Strategy of Tension unfolded there

**Ganser:** No, but I did not look for them. ern Alliance?

machinations as well as the coverup. Today, such efforts are to speak. facilitated by the Internet and the exchange of information among people from all corners of the globe. Ten years ago **EIR:** But the PCI did undergo quite a transformation during

French, and Italian. I was born in the Italian-speaking part, I hind the Strategy of Tension in Italy? got my education in the German-speaking part, and I spent **Ganser:** Sure, the PCI and its members did change in the sis, with books in English on the same subject, or books in Communist Party. Russian. I could only compare English and Spanish, but they At the same time, and that's documented in the SB/Gladio

the ministerial posts have to be divided among the four major ally forced NATO out of France.

know, I specialized in ancient history at one time. The Ro- governing system. This distrust is so deep-seated, that the mans were very much afraid of their own army, that the Swiss people say about Bern, Switzerland's capital: We hope army would get corrupted through its power and then destroy the parties block each other, otherwise they'll grab the power the Republic. When I saw some of the corruption and crime and run away with it. This distrust goes probably back to the in the field of covert actions, I thought, "It's literally Hapsburgs; it goes a back a long, long way. The Swiss would 'classic'!" never allow one Swiss party to dominate the executive, let But there are other segments of the military, who still alone also the legislative and the judiciary; obviously Montes-

a booklet on the topic, seems to be such a personality. with unparalleled ferocity, compared to other NATO countries. The presence of the largest Communist Party in Europe, **EIR:** Did you find in your work any links of financial institu- the PCI, would be an explanation for this. Do you think that tions, of any type, to the SB/Gladio structure? the PCI was really such a threat to democracy and the West-

**Ganser:** We know now, after the Cold War is over, that **EIR:** For a subject as sensitive as Gladio, is Switzerland Moscow had paid large amounts of money to the Italian Coma convenient or a difficult environment for doing this kind munist Party or to factions inside the PCI. That was part of of work? the situation in Europe during the Cold War. So you have to **Ganser:** Switzerland is rather a convenient, than a difficult ask the question: What would have happened if, for example, environment, for two reasons. First, the Swiss distrust power in Italy or France, the Communists had gained so much at the politics—and great powers. Switzerland is a small country, polls, that they could have entered the government—meaning and small countries traditionally distrust great powers—be Communists in the Interior Ministry, Foreign Ministry, or they the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese, or the Ameri- even the Defense Ministry? I think, a Communist defense cans. The small players want these big players to respect the minister would have been seen as a real threat to NATO. I'm rule of law, for that's their shield and protection. And when not sure whether—actually I doubt it—that he would have these big players manipulate and disregard international law, transferred military secrets to Moscow—that obviously deas they often did in the last century, when they lie and kill, pends on the character and integrity of the person—but he the Swiss do not like that. They, like other small players, could have. So, I do understand that Washington and London sense the danger and, at times, therefore, try to expose the would have seen that as a real threat; a threat from inside so

that would have been much more difficult. the 1970s, which culminated in its official recognition of The other positive side about Switzerland is that it has NATO. So, was the PCI really a threat then? Don't you think three languages—actually four, but basically German, that there were other reasons, maybe unspoken reasons, be-

my holidays in the French-speaking part. That was very help- course of the Cold War. But, speaking of the 1960s and 1970s, ful for my work later. I did most of my studying in English- the Communists saw how the United States had attacked Vietspeaking countries, which was also very helpful for my re- nam—after having fabricated a lie with the Gulf of Tonkin search. If you read books in many different languages, you episode. So, there was massive distrust toward the United will realize that they portray events from different perspec- States from the PCI, this cannot be ignored. Look at some tives. Just compare Spanish books on the Cuban Missile Cri- countries like Germany or Switzerland; they outlawed the

were already worlds apart. data, in Greece the Socialists Andreas Papandreou and The distrust of power in Switzerland, by the way, is not George Papandreou, his father, also clearly stated that they limited to foreigners, but is also very much there among the did not trust NATO at all. And they were no Communists. Swiss. The Swiss government is the only government which Or, take de Gaulle, he was certainly no Communist, but he must have all the major parties represented in the government; quarrelled with the U.S. and NATO so much that he eventu-

**EIR:** In Italy, there have been at least four known attempted b) the physical liquidation of prominent political-economic sination of Aldo Moro fits into this pattern, if one considers this?

there's a prospect of private property getting nationalized, phenomenon has been made available. Tension, also in Italy. was covered up.

**EIR:** It does not need to come to nationalization, for covert **EIR:** Let us stay for a moment with Moro. Do you have any nomic policies that take into account social welfare and na- into left-terrorist groups? discredited because he also has some rather esoteric views. not many Gladiators have been named anyway.

so free, generates economic growth, and moreover solves our Communist Cells (CCC) seem to have been a leftist organizamoral problems, in the sense how we human beings behave tion which was created in order to be the deposit of evidence toward each other, and hence helps to create a "better world," of terrorist attacks—which others carried out. The same was is being fought out in many newspapers and books. It's a most with the Piazza Fontana bombing, where the evidence was interesting discourse. planted with Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, the left-wing editor.

**EIR:** Let us connect this to the Gladio question. Terrorist **EIR:** Have you seen the *EIR* material on irregular warfare, in the case of Piazza Fontana or the Bologna train station, and thought about it?

military coups in the post-war period—they were all con- figures representing a very specific economic and political nected to projects to implement "neoliberal-globalist" as op- point of view, like Moro or the bankers Ju¨rgen Ponto and posed to "national-e´tatist" economic policies. Even the assas- Alfred Herrhausen in Germany. What are your thoughts on

the economic policy changes that occurred after 1978. Do you **Ganser:** From the data on SB/Gladio that I have seen, I cansee this as a characteristic feature of the Strategy of Tension not confirm that Ponto and Herrhausen—I would add Olof in Europe? Palme here—were targetted and killed by "NATO's secret **Ganser:** I think that economic matters do play a major role armies." It is even most difficult to reconstruct the killing of in covert operations. I have studied the evidence in respect to Aldo Moro: Why was he killed and who pulled the strings? the 1959 Castro revolution in Cuba. The American investors At the same time, I do not exclude that "NATO's secret arthere were very, very afraid of losing their money—and the mies" were vehicles, the utilization of which made possible U.S. launched covert operations to get rid of Castro. The that these assassination operations were carried out so effisame is true with the Russian Revolution in 1917: France ciently. That really needs further investigation. I would never and England (with some U.S. support) tried to overthrow the exclude that the secret armies could have been involved; one young Communist regime, but their operations all failed. If can hardly exclude something as long as so little data on the

investors will become very brutal—look at what happened to The death of Olof Palme in 1986, and the death of Aldo Mossadegh in Iran in 1953. They will not refrain from any- Moro in 1978, those were to Sweden and Italy what the J.F. thing, and, if they can get governments to run covert opera- Kennedy's assassination in 1963 was to the United States. tions against a regime they see as threat to their economic Maybe the Herrhausen assassination in 1989 was the same to interests, they will do just that. So, certainly, from that per- Germany. Did they find out who killed Kennedy? No. Some spective, there was an economic dimension in the Strategy of think it was crazy Oswald acting alone; others think the truth

operations to be launched. We are speaking here about eco- insight on the subject of the "insertion" of SB/Gladio elements

tional economic development—simply the opposite of the **Ganser:** If you infiltrate a group and then carry out terror neoliberal policies, which today are the basis of globalization. operations with that group, without that group knowing that **Ganser:** It's true, covert action is sometimes also launched it has been infiltrated and is being "steered," that is one of the in the absence of nationalizations, hence following social re- strategically most sophisticated operations imaginable. To forms for instance, as in Chile in 1973. And it is true that, in any strategist, that is "beautiful," just as it is ugly from a moral the context of globalization, any resistance to what one may perspective. On the question, who infiltrated or who might call the "profit system" is being attacked also "by other have infiltrated the Red Brigades, I am not an expert, even means"—not just by political or academic arguments. There though one name has been raised quite a few times: Mario are the cases of Cuba or Chile in 1973, or even Italy. There's Moretti, an ex-neofascist. In the documents that I have seen, this very interesting book by John Perkins,3 but he is being Moretti was not being named as one of the Gladiators—but

The debate, whether "the free market," which is often not Maybe one should look at Belgium, where the Combatant

operations, involving SB/Gladio assets in the context of the Strategy of Tension, or the Moro or Herrhausen cases, much Strategy of Tension, had a dual thrust: a) blind terrorism, as of it already published in the 1970s and 1980s? What are your

**Ganser:** I have seen some of the *EIR* material now—and it's rather unique. I cannot say whether everything that's in these 3. *Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization*

*To Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions* texts is correct or not, because it is a very large field that's (San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler, 2004). covered there. I had not known *EIR* before you contacted me

*The Stay Back/Gladio data show that at least elements of some of the "secret armies," in which NATO was involved, were linked to sponsoring terrorism. So, Stay Back/Gladio is a very delicate issue for NATO.So delicate, that NATO simply does not want to talk about it.*

and sent me some data. But I have to say that not many people **Ganser:** Obviously, for the international research commudare speak about these issues. Even if you carefully read lead- nity, the real big thing, right now, is 9/11. Many academic ing newspapers, you are never going to get to these questions. researchers across the globe, and also in the U.S., are asking The page "secret warfare" is missing in all major media out- many questions: Did the Bush Administration deliberately lets, but they do have several pages on trivia. Therefore, I allow the 9/11 attacks to happen, in order to have a pretext think it is quite important indeed, that *EIR* deals with these for attacking Afghanistan and Iraq, to be able to increase questions, which very much influence our lives. I was really military spending, and to cut back on civil liberties in the surprised as well, that *EIR* had published these analyses and U.S.? This is the so-called LIHOP theory—Let It Happen so much data already 20, 25 years ago. On Purpose.

you compared the way international terrorism—mostly "Is- SURPRISE theory, which dominated the early media reports.

ously is still going on is secret warfare. We have secret warfare pretext for invading Cuba and overthrowing Castro.

bombing of Serbia started. I looked at what exactly the OSCE possible explanation.

Or were Bush and his Administration totally surprised **EIR:** In your *NZZ* article before Christmas \[Dec. 15, 2004\], by Osama bin Laden, as they claim? This is the so-called

lamic terrorism"—is currently deployed to be part of the Or did Osama bin Laden have nothing to do with the Strategy of Tension. Can you explain that further? attack at all, while conspirators at the Pentagon carried out **Ganser:** People very often ask me: It is very interesting what the operation, as well as the subsequent anthrax attacks? This you write about what happened in the 1970s, but I am living is the so-called INSIDE JOB theory, which builds on the 1962 now, what is going on now? My usual answer to that is that "Operation Northwoods" plans of the Pentagon to blow up SB/Gladio, as such, is not operative anymore, but what obvi- planes and stage terror attacks in Florida in order to create a

going on here and now. Academics who study secret warfare find themselves be-I'll give an example: the wars in the Balkans during the tween these three theories—LIHOP, SURPRISE, and IN-1990s. In August 1995, the Croatian Army succesfully drove SIDE JOB. They all are "conspiracy theories," by the way. the Serbs off occupied Croatian territory. But, in this Opera- Researchers try to find out which theory is best able to account tion Oluja, they were covertly assisted by Military Profes- for all the known facts. I must say that 9/11 is an extremely sional Resources Incorporated (MPRI), an American private complicated crime and therefore many academics, including military company. Many people did not know of that at the myself, have a hard time to figure out which of the three time, and I myself was very surprised to find out about this theories fits the true story. So most of us waited to see how Operation Oluja, which later was rated a war crime by the the official U.S. investigation into 9/11, the Thomas Kean and International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague. We know very Philip Zelikow report, would deal with these three theories. little of how PMCs—Private Military Companies—are But unfortunately, the 600-page report, published in July linked to covert action and, at times, war crimes, despite the 2004 and accepted by Bush as the "official story" of what fact that they operate on all continents today. Then, we had happened in respect to 9/11, does not even mention the LIHOP the Kosovo operation, when, on March 24, 1999, the NATO and INSIDE JOB theories! It presents SURPRISE as the only

did in the weeks before, because William Walker, the U.S. Now, Philip Zelikow is a respected professor of history; representative to the OSCE, had been linked to covert opera- as a fellow historian I was therefore very surprised to find that tions in Latin America. The data I found showed that Walker his report is totally unbalanced. Of course, Zelikow is aware had the Racak massacre in Kosovo manipulated in order to of the LIHOP and INSIDE JOB theories, no doubt. How can spread a "genocide claim." That also impressed German For- he author a book on 9/11, which claims to search for the truth, eign Minister Joschka Fischer, despite the fact that the data but which totally ignores these theories? He could of course on the ground did not support this claim. Truth is very often have presented them to the reader and then deconstructed the first victim of war. them with the facts available. That's the normal academic procedure; that would have been all right. But in the utterly **EIR:** And what about 9/11? unbalanced way this book has been written, it could not be

thesis at a university. Because it not only fails to mention esting. LIHOP and INSIDE JOB as competing theories, but leaves NORAD's \[North American Aerospace Defense Command\] your thoughts on this?

**EIR:** Do we understand you correctly, that you do not accept government, produces the best insights. the official U.S. government version of 9/11 as represented When you talk about driving the U.S. government into a

Wilson showed. And now the Kean report on 9/11, which sources, we better use it—under whatever pretext.

sounds like a man shooting his own foot, only to say after- new wars. wards: Oh, somebody shot me and now I have to kill the Again, as I said, it is important that we study covert opera capabilities? My students want to know about SURPRISE, remains very much the same.

accepted as a Ph.D. thesis or maybe not even as a Masters LIHOP, and INSIDE JOB. It's a lot of work, but very inter-

out all data which support the latter two theories: The collapse **EIR:** The actions or non-actions of the U.S. government of WTC7 (World Trade Center building 7) is not mentioned; need not necessarily mean that the U.S. government as such the controversial Pentagon picture is not mentioned let alone was behind 9/11. Could there have been a secret structure that debated; the BBC report, that six alleged hijackers are still was trying to force the U.S. government in a certain direction alive, is not mentioned nor debated; the alleged funding of via 9/11? The best reference historically would be the Secret Mohamed Atta by the Pakistani ISI intelligence service is not Army Organization (OAS)—the secret structure within the mentioned; nor the protests of FBI agent Coleen Rowley that French state apparatus in the early 1960s. And here we have there were lies and coverups. The explanations given for here an overlap with our main subject, SB/Gladio. What are

failure to intercept the attacking planes, and for the put op- **Ganser:** I'm not sure the parallel is a good one. Do I know tions, plus insider trading, are also less than satisfying. So we of a secret, hidden group above or within the U.S. governare back to square one, with three competing theories, while ment? No, I don't. If your speculation is correct and there is the official U.S. investigation looks very much like a coverup. such a structure, then, I think, there would have been coopera-By the way, the official U.S. investigation is carefully dis- tion from within the government with it. I'm a historian and sected in a just-released book by Prof. David Ray Griffin, an my points of reference are the President, the Vice President, American, like Zelikow. It's very much a battle of the best the Secretary of Defense, etc.—and their actions. Of course, and the brightest minds in the U.S. now as to what really historians are well aware that power can also be organized happened on 9/11. in different and more hidden forms, but I still think closely studying not only the words, but above all the actions of a

by the Kean report? certain direction, I would say, yes, of course. There are hun-**Ganser:** The Kean report is poor, no doubt. Does that mean dreds of lobbying groups, and, the way I see it, strategic enthat SURPRISE is dead? Not necessarily. All three theories ergy policy seems to play a big role. There's much debate on are still in the air and require further testing. The problem is, the "peak oil" thesis. It's being said that maybe half of the oil however, that trust in the White House has been decaying we have on Earth is already used up, so we are running out of rapidly during the last years. When President Bush and Vice oil, while for the future we expect global population to rise to President Cheney were saying Saddam Hussein was behind 10 billion and China and India are coming in big, consuming 9/11, experts were quite surprised that the White House could energy. It's quite imaginable that there's a power group, so recklessly spread such a far-reaching lie. I mean, we have maybe outside, maybe inside the White House and the Pentahad more than 100,000 civilians killed so far in the war in gon, saying: We must check the power of China, India, the Iraq, so this issue is extremely serious. Then we had the "Niger European Union, and make sure we control the oil reserves. Uranium" story, yet another lie, as former U.S. Ambassador As long as we have the military force to control energy re-

looks like a coverup. All that is not reassuring at all. Brzezinski, for instance, urged in his 1997 book *Chess-*Academics in the U.S. and across the globe must make a *board* that the U.S. must try to control what he called "Eureal effort to break through such a web of lies, but that will rasia"—the landmass of Europe and Asia. Eurasia has historibe difficult, above all because many have simply settled for cally held the key to global power, so no global power \[can SURPRISE without knowing the debate at all. be maintained\] without control of Eurasia, Brzezinski said, and he's probably right. Of course you can't talk geostrategy **EIR:** So, you are engaged in a research project on 9/11? to the larger U.S. population, or the European Union (EU) **Ganser:** Yes, I have agreed to teach a class on 9/11 at Zu¨rich population for that matter, and therefore the U.S. could not University. My students want to know what really happened start new wars, unless, as Brzezinski put it, "a truly massive on 9/11. They are in their 20s and they really want to know: and widely perceived direct external threat" materialized Is it true that the Pentagon staged the attack on itself? That which could scare the U.S. Congress and population into

"perpetrator." Or, was the Pentagon really surprised at being tions. I did my part on SB/Gladio, which is history now. But attacked by Osama bin Laden, who was so much smarter than studying Gladio can instruct our thinking. The forms of secret anybody else, including the U.S. government with its vast warfare change with time, but the strategy, the methodology

---

## Navigation

- Parent: [Media](https://samisdat.in/en/media.md)
- Next: [Live Not By Lies (1974) by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn](https://samisdat.in/en/media/live-not-by-lies-1974-audio.md)